Discipline

EDIT: What a difference one word makes. Different fight actions really sinks this card in a lot of ways that makes a lot of this review make no sense!

In my opinion the best Discipline, but one you almost always take second.

Disciplines serve three functions for Lily: A slotless stat boost, a powerful 'supermove,' and protection from her weakness, which goes from being mid tier if you can't burn a discipline easily to trivial if you can.

The agility boost doesn't seem amazing. After all, Lilly is a guardian right? She should be killing things! But the thing is Lilly isn't actually super amazing at killing things with her kit, as being locked to melee limits her damage twofold: She can't get the literal 'big guns' that can push past 4 base damage with super amazing action efficiency, and she can't slot custom ammo (which tends to, late campaign, effectively just read "+1 damage).

Now don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer that you can still be a primary monster hunter with even a 3 damage weapon like a Cyclopian Hammer: Generally even in a 4 player game your not really expected to murder more than one monster a turn just because that is sorta impractical math wise or uhh... questionablly safe because your aiming lightning gun at your seeker's and mystic's general direction and if your blasting away for 3 attacks you have a 20% chance to just flat out kill a fellow investigator if they have less than the enemy's damage+4 health in that case on that turn, even assuming you only fail on autofail. Your flexes and even cluevers are going to need to be capable of making sure people don't literally die if you have to leave a monster on them for literally one turn, or else your team has problems way more fundamental than 'do I do enough damage.'

But lower damage weapons do make you a bit more volatile in other ways. Sure, its now generally more acceptable to shoot or stab in your friend's general direction, but now misses hurt more, because a higher proportion of your actions are likely required to kill the enemy. This means that teams with 'utility guardians' using stuff like Cyclopian Hammer or a Tommygun are going to need peel tools, and evasion is one of those. And hey, some of those 'chaos bag protection' tools your probably taking on Lily like your fancy candles can make it even easier.

But lets be real, your really taking this for the active and flip effect. The speed could literally not be there and this would be a highly competitive option, because the burn and flip effect on this combo just so well.

Guardians often aren't fighting literally all the time. Even in a 4 player game you generally have 'bursts' of activity, where 2 enemies are drawn at the same time or something where you and your flexes contain them and beat them down, and then a period of quiet. Boss fights tend to be short intense bursts of activity, rather than drawn out affairs: if your wailing on something for more than a few turns your either evade-juking it over and over to trivialize the fight, or your losing very badly. The ability to essentially get an entire extra turn allows Lilly to handle huge emergencies way better than her card pool may imply. Sure she doesn't have a flamethrower, but she can swing that cyclopean hammer 6 times a turn for a whopping 18 damage. And it can more easily be divvied up vs multiple enemies, making it actually easier for Lily to handle 2 enemies popping up solo than most other guardians, rather than harder. And, obviously, for boss fights, getting two entire turns of attacks, or 5 attacks plus an evade, generally sets you up to win: very few bosses can handle 8 actions worth of guardian attacks over two turns even before someone helps you evade tank or you start using things like Dodge.

But the flip effect also plays into this guardian loop of 'handle problems, prep for problems while also trying to help out in minor ways.' Because Guardians often will experience quiet moments (Unless, I dunno, your running with 3 Cluevers who literally can't even handle a rat in The Secret Name or something, in which case that is super not on Lilly) it is quite common to have turns where you just never encounter an enemy, meaning this is very easy to flip. Because the stat isn't super important to you, its also ok to let this sit unflipped if you constantly get a 'trickle' of enemies, which is sorta a nice place to be as a melee guardian. And because the effect is so easy to undo, it is fairly safe to let this flip when your weakness hits.

So this creates a very huge mid-campaign power boost for Lily: After 15 XP (generally 2-4 scenarios in, depending on how well you do and how much your mystic likes to delve) you suddenly get the ability to get double turns sometimes even every other turn. It is good enough I might consider it for my first snag for Lily, but I think she would much rather take Strength or Willpower depending on how you are constructing your deck

dezzmont · 222
If you activate the discipline you have to take 3 different fight actions, so you can only activate each weapon once with the additional actions. — Tharzax · 1
What a difference a single word makes. — dezzmont · 222
Unless you use weapons like "Knife" or "Timeworn Brand". Not sure, if it works with level 0 Sledgehammer. Could you pack both the single and double action into one action? And would it cost 1 or 2 actions? In general, this card seems more designed for events than assets. — Susumu · 382
I would say, that you can cancel spent more than one action from this talent on abilities due to the word different. So you need one of your basic actions if you want to use both abilities of the hammer. And please don't forget that you need an action to activate this discipline! — Tharzax · 1
I imagine that you could still use a 2 attack Butterfly Swords with 1 of your different fight actions. Then a Spectral Razor, Then some Shriveling. — dlikos · 166
Does anyone know whether you're allowed or able to to take "Fast" actions in between the 3 special actions? For example could one Machete, Machete, pop Balance of Body, gaining 3 pseudo Fight/Evade actions, Attack with "Toe to toe" Fight Event, then react to that with a Fast Counter Punch, before doing 2 other different Fight or evade actions? — Quantallar · 8
Dodge

The following investigators with access to Guardian 2 have at least 3 agility and thus can reliably counter-punch out of the gate without too much assistance: Skids, Diana, Lola, Mark, Mary, Lily, and Yorick.

Of that list, Diana and Mark already run dodge as a pretty meta card, and I think that we may be seeing more characters joining in on Diana's shenanigans of 'just say no and get rewarded for it.' But I think the real winners here are Skids and Lily.

Skids really struggles to accomplish things. He can either build up a fortune with his parallel front, or get a ton of actions that do very little with his base front. This likely will play into his parallel front's sort of 'pseudo-testless' archetype, weaponizing low agility tests to force things like Lucky Cigs or Watch This to generate rewards for lowball tests. But more important than the low test value that Skids can easily pass is the fact that this is yet another 'ping' that parallel front, standard back Skids has access to, and as we know from Trish there comes a point where testless effects reach a critical mass and suddenly become an archetype. Skids already feels on the edge of that with cards like Dynamite Blast, Small Favor (Which is bad on most rogues but Skids has a lot of ways to get it to fire off between Dodging, Evading, or just spending the extra cash to 'snipe' with it), Delilah, and Beat Cop. Combined with Hatchet Man, Backstab, Sneak attack, and Cheap Shot, and we are starting to see a lot of ways for Skids to spam events and assets to do quite a bit of damage while keeping enemies exhausted and himself rich and full of cards. Maybe 2022 will be his year!

As for Lilly, she has a few things that make her want this wonderfully thematic 'counterstrike.' Firstly, she needs to spend a deck slot for base dodge, so this saves her a slot for another level 0 she may want more.

Secondly, her lack of firearm access locks her out of most of the high damage guardian weapons. She certainly isn't totally out of luck in that department, Cyclopian Hammer and, if your running blessings, Holy Spear can really mess someone up, but for the most part its hard to deal more than 2 damage with a melee attack base, and even the 'big melee' stuff struggles damage wise and are more utility options due to capping out at 3 damage and not having access to custom ammo for that late campaign damage push. So like most guardians who run the more 'utilitarian weapons' as their primary, she really wants pings, and a few of her really strong weapon upgrades (like Butterfly Knives and Survival Knife) already have synergy with dodge.

Finally, it is very likely, at least in my opinion, that Balance of Body will be the 'meta' secondary discipline you take at 15 XP, simply because it has the strongest 'burn' effect, and the easiest flip condition, which are both highly relevant for Lily. Upgraded Dodge plays into the 'super turn' ability well because the bonus agility obviously helps you out if your using this on a random lone enemy your not popping Balance for, but it also helps both in the context of needing one last bit of gas if your 'super-turn' doesn't take everyone out, or if your caught without access to it due to a bad draw of your weakness, which you likely took Balance of Body in part to handle due to how hard it can be to flip Persistence of Fate, and it being slightly tricky to flip Alignment of Spirit in some campaigns (like say.... Forgotten Age).

Those last two also synthesize into being a compelling reason to take pings in Lilly overall: Lilly is likely going to be doing 2-3 damage an attack, meaning your getting a lot of breakpoints where 1 extra damage will let you kill something big you otherwise couldn't quiiite get. A low damage weapon is more vulnerable to unlucky autofails, making the dual insurance of an extra damage and a guaranteed defense (potentially on a fellow gator even) to ensure you have a full extra turn to try again very powerful, and helps makes even your superturns more flexible with your low damage weapons.

Mark may want it just because its a bit more extra damage he can push with Sophie late in a scenario, and the guy runs Dodge basically 24/7 anyway, so assuming there aren't any super spooky symbol effects in the campaign, why the heck not? Sister Mary is very physically fragile, so dodge isn't actually terrible on her despite the fact she has her own 'holy dodge,' and she often plays a more supportive role than most other guardians anyway, so her joining Diana in shouting "No no no no no!" isn't out of the question. But I don't think we will really see dodge+ in most guardians besides Lilly (and off guardians besides Skids and maybe REALLY late campaign Dianas who are comfortable with bad symbols) until there is either some passive agility boosting in guardian attached to a good effect (Which is essentially what Balance of Body is), or we see until we see more pings in guardian.

dezzmont · 222
Lily can use the Sledge, too. — MrGoldbee · 1493
Snake Bite

edit- Parallel roland only has 0-3 guardian access, which is silly, but this was silly sooo. Guard dog wins with 6/4? :)

I was preparing another run of RT TFA when I saw this card, and what a puzzle it always gives me. It's simple, if you fail, you either get poisoned, or you kill an ally, but it doesn't say, 'discard an ally asset you control' it says 'deal 5 damage to an ally you control.' Which for some reason gets me thinking.

"Is there a way for an ally assets to survive this attack?"

At the time of this treachery cards making? No. But it's been a few years,a few campaigns,a few hundred cards, can we do it now? Let's see.

I'm gonna see if we can, at lvl 0, just starting this campaign, survive this attack, because OBVIOUSLY we don't want to test agility, and OBVIOUSLY we don't want to get poisoned, so clearly this is the best route to take! :D

Now, looking through the cards, what ally asset has the most HP ~quick scan~.....guard dog. This good boy sits at a whooping 3/1! Sanity doesn't matter, but health does. :)

3,however, won't cut it. So the question is, can we increase this? YES! -Trusted- is a card, it was released with TFA.i believe we can stack two of these, I'm not 100% sure, but it doesn't say so on the card. So putting 2 of these bad boys down, guard dog goes to 5/3! NICE! here we go!

But damn, we got it to 5, but he still will get killed, we need one more. I dont think.... BUT WAIT......THE STAR! the star is a tarot card just added via RT TCU, each asset enter play with 1/1. That brings guard dog to 6/4 which is in the gree......

Oh shoot........3 Exp

If only there was a way we could start the game with 3 exp.....! Enter -in the thick of it- new shiny from EOTE, for the small,small price of 2 trauma(your choice of which bb) you can start any campaign with 3 exp. Pretty decent. So, sadly only guardians up to lvl 3 (sorry Daniela) can run this

But I'm not done. What if for some odd reason, you can't stack 2 trusted, well is there a way. ~quick scan~there is one ally that can reach the hp lvl without 2 trusted...enter ~agency backup~also from TCU, it's cool 4/4 with the above combo give it a whooping 6/6. Nice!........but damn, 5 exp..... what?

I don't think there IS a way, to start a campaign with 5 xp, we got away with 3, but ~in the thick of it~ is limited to 1 per deck. I wonder, the only investigator I can think of that starts with 5xp is father Mateo. But he can't run most of the guardian cards.....! ~quick scan~ ROLAND coughcough* I'm sorry, I ment Parallel Roland.

He can take all guardian cards, (on top of some tactics/insight) he also starts the campaign with 5 exp! Combined with lovely ~into the thick of it~ he can add trusted, the star, and agency backup, waste a bunch of turns to

-get resources

-draw all three cards

-play the star

-play agency backup

-play trusted

-and patiently wait for you to draw snake bite! With all of these cards finally out

-profit$$$$

If,however, you CAN stack trusted, Parallel roland can run 2, and get agency backUP to the largest amount of health/sanity an ally can have from the very first game.

7/7

That's the same health/sanity as most investigators(and more than calvin)

This was an interesting experience.it may not be exactly a lvl 0 deck, but it is legal....I think. It was very funny to play around with. But to be completely honest.... is it practical?

No,no it isn't. Because to be honest.... Snake Bite! Could of just said 'discard an ally asset you control'

edit

(Also, why does this version of the federal agent NOT have access to agency backup >:( oh well, this was still fun to think about)

Roland only has Guardian cards to level 3, so no Agency Backup for him, weird as that is. — SSW · 217
Oh shoot, well damn, I overlooked that. — Therealestize · 76
Well, guard dog is king, I guess :/ — Therealestize · 76
If you have three XP at your disposal, Grete Wagner (3) is an alternative to Guard Dog + Star. — Tamsk · 1
Parallel Roland could! Grete(3) would have 7/5 nice! — Therealestize · 76
Don't neglect opportunities to cancel damage such as "I've Had Worse....". The current ruling on damage that is dealt to "you" says that this includes damage dealt to cards you control. If your ally takes 5 damage and you can cancel 2-5 of that damage, the group of allies who can withstand the bite increases wildly. — Granfalegion · 1
Protective Gear

This varies from campaign to campaign how good it is, but there are some general rules of thumb to keep in mind regardless:

1: A lot of hazards target multiple players, so even though your less likely to be the one to draw the hazard, each cancel you make 'counts more' in higher player count games. This is a mixed bag to be sure, but one player spending 1 health and 1 sanity soak to cancel something that may say.... cost 4 actions across the team once a game still is better than canceling that for 3 health and 3 sanity to save 3 actions.

2: A lot of hazards target speed, and a few target will. Quite a few also just don't allow you resist them at all.

3: A lot of hazards target your stuff, do lots of damage, or steal your actions or slow you down in some major way. There are a few not so bad hazards, but for the most part they pretty spoooooky.

This combined with the relatively good soak to cost ratio if you just use it as soak, the fact its a rare horror soak in body, and body isn't a common slot work for it: The ability to say 'nah' to the encounter deck is huge. The big things that stick out are its an XP card and guardians tend to be XP hungry (Though survivors tend to have plenty to spare) and both guardians and survivors are the most likely to have good uses for their body slots due to having the flamethrower for guardian, and leather coat for survivor.

Guardian wise, Leo Anderson might want this. As someone with lots of allies they don't exactly need soak, but they often really struggle with hazards due to their terrible speed resulting in them having to dump resources out of hand or let their friends die to handle some jungle fauna. Maybe that is why his entire previous expedition died? Due to the fact Leo is already asset heavy this may be tough to fit in, and while Leo has great econ options he also tends to run expensive, so its a tossup. Probably for sure in Lost Age though.

For Survivors, Calvin always could use more soak tools, and this lets him double up a slot for that, maybe freeing up the trinket space from sanity soak to something else. And eating a hazard early could really mess him up. Again, if its already a hazard heavy campaign he may want it.

Overall, it feels like the soak is nice, and definitely a big reason you take this, but you never take it JUST for the soak. The soak is the value add for when your not getting hazards. Your character probably should care about both (if it just canceled 3 hazards a game it would be terrible after all), but if the campaign really lacks hazards (which is rare but happens) you shouldn't take this.

There is one more thing worth mentioning though: This is a 2 XP card, meaning its accessible cross class. This opens up a lot for certain characters: Skids, Diana, Joe, Agnes, Mhin, and Preston can all take this, and it actually is somewhat interesting on some of them.

Skids is very poor, sure, but we also know his sanity is super fragile, and having access to soak for that can help him out a lot. The tempo hit from a lot of hazards is also very spooky.

Diana can use the last activation of this as a cancel, and unless she uses Robes of Endless Night or runs Bandoleer this serves as her main use of a body slot and makes an already tough character able to say no even more 'no-y.'

Agnes likewise really can take lots of horror as her base version, and wants things to damage as her parallel (though her parallel is likely going to want to use a leather coat to do this, she can use the sanity at least to tank her weakness).

Finally, for Preston, bypassing tests is a big part of his play, and this lets you do that quite often. Preston is rich as well and has the least trouble playing this of any character with access to it, meaning he might legitimately be the only person who wears a fire suit around say... The Silver Twilight Lodge manor. With awful stats mythos phase can be rough on him when tests come about unless he expends resources in some way to bypass them, which means that being able to say no to a test with a degree of failure downside really can save his bacon. Finally, and most critically, there is an extreme synergy with Darkhorse Preston due to him being able to take a Fireaxe with it, which definitely means someone is going to name a deck "Firefighter Preston" and toss Flare and Fire Extinguisher in there just to complete the set.

dezzmont · 222
If we're talking about which investigators might want this, Tommy seems like a much more obvious choice than Leo out of Guardian. It's an asset that damages itself to do something good and has more total health+sanity than its resource cost, so it recycles really nicely. — Thatwasademo · 58
It certainly isn't bad in Tommy! It competes with the coat there but both net 2 if you use em right. Coat is easier to use and doesn't overlap with pawterson, while the gear protects his allies. Still, a lot of hazards make Leo's 1 speed REAL rough and often specifically will hurt his allies too. I would in a campaign I knew hazards were about take this on Leo more often than Tommy. — dezzmont · 222
Firefighter Preston, yesssss... — anaphysik · 98
Buried Secrets

Buried Secrets is, in most cases, a mild weakness. Resolving it takes a single by testing a stat that Monterey is inherently good at. Even if you fail, you get to decide if you want to try the test again or take 2 horror and shuffle the weakness back into your deck. You know it's a generous weakness when even the worst case scenario isn't all that bad.

Let's break it down:

  • Buried Secrets has a revelation effect, so it goes into your threat area immediately after being drawn.
  • The ongoing effect is that you, the Monterey Jack player, can no longer move if your current location can be investigated. If it can't, (Locked Doors for example) you can move but the no movement-clause will kick in as soon as you reach a location that can be investigated.
  • To make Buried Secrets go away, you have to spend an action and pass a single investigation test. If you pass, the weakness is discarded and that's that. Remember that you can investigate locations without clues on them.
  • If you fail, you may take 2 Horror and shuffle the weakness back into your deck. Or you can let it be and just try again. That's mighty generous for Arkham Horror.
  • Buried Secrets is your threat area, so any other investigator can activate the . If they fail the test, they get to decide if they'll take the horror damage or not. If they do, the weakness will be shuffled into your deck (not theirs). Having friends around will milden Buried Secrets even more.

In almost every case, you will draw this weakness while unegaged and on a 2, 3 or 4 shroud location. Then you can simply pass a single test with the odds highly in your favor, and be on your merry way. (Or you get get a friend to help you out, either a smart one one with a decent chance to pass the test - or a dumb one with two spare Sanity).

But if you're unlucky, there'll be an enemy engaged to you, one that needs to be evaded first. The guardian is three locations away. You'll fail the first evade, pass the second but then you have to spend your last action on getting rid of Buried Secrets. You're stuck and the enemy will re-engage in the enemy phase, so you'll need to spend yet another action evading it before you can move on. And you'll be muttering "Man, this weakness sucks!". But the very next round, your friend playing Marie Lambeau draws Baron Samedi. And you'll think "Okay, Buried Secrets is really not that bad."

olahren · 3586
Buried Secrets is mild, but Thrice-Damned is probably milder. — SSW · 217
The real problem with Thrice-Damned Curiosity isn't the actual effect it has while you're playing, it's the chilling effect it has on Harvey by punishing him heavily for what everything else about him wants you to do. This weakness, on the other hand, just makes you waste one successful investigate action on a 4 intellect character, which doesn't really stop your gameplan as a seeker-rogue at all. — Thatwasademo · 58
You know you can just use cards in your hand, right? Drawing cards does not equal keeping them in your hand. — SSW · 217
Telling Harvey to play cards is like asking Preston to spend money. — SGPrometheus · 847
Picking Thrice-Damned Secrets as my example of a nasty weakness was stupid. It's only bad if you're playing the big-hand version of him (which I was heavily implying but still). I've editet the review and changed the example to Baron Samedi. — olahren · 3586